Wanna connect?
Our last few posts have generated an interesting discussion about the relationship between horses and humans, and the people we look to for guidance on how a human can become an enlightened friend and trustworthy guide to a horse. A couple of these issues are so important that we have decided to include them in a separate post. Here it is.
The first issue concerns the relationship between horses and humans, which is covered by a number of questions which Geerteke has raised. The second issue deals with the people we look to for guidance in helping us to improve our relationship with our equine friends. Lynne G. has sent us links to two videos featuring a well-known French horse trainer and performer called Frédéric Pignon, saying that she finds it more beneficial to watch videos of his interaction with horses than any which feature Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. Should we look to Pignon for guidance rather than Hempfling or is this a non-issue?
Horses and humans
In December Geerteke attended a course with Carolyn Resnick and was presented with the following questions:
- How do I want the horse to see me?
- What do I want to get out of it?
- How do you expect to treat a horse and how do you expect it to treat you?
We feel that these questions go to the heart of a human’s relationship with his or her horse, because they raise issues concerning human wants and expectations which have the potential to ensure that those very wants and expectations remain unfulfilled merely by virtue of their existence. The paradox inherent in this is something which Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling mentions in The Horse Seeks Me, where he quotes the following Confucian saying: ‘Every plan for effect will only destroy this effect’ (p. 132). Put another way, the more you want or expect, the less you are likely to get.
Because these questions are so important, we have decided to publish our replies to them and to encourage our readers to consider them as well. We would be really interested to hear what you think.
Vicki’s answers
How do I want the horse to see me?
The initial words I quickly started jotting down were ‘I want my horse to see me as…’ then paused and read my paragraph above in which I pointed out how difficult it is to NOT WANT anything from the horse! So should I WANT my horse to see me as this or that particular person with those qualities? Not, if I believe my own words that the wanting can kill the very thing I would like to achieve in myself. Thus the horse will see me as it sees me.
What do I want to get out of it?
Vicki seeking a zen connection with our horses
As this question was asked by Carolyn Resnick in your course with her, I assume ‘it’ refers to the course? But let me formulate my reply based on ‘the connection between human and horse’.
I want to be the kind of human my horse wishes to be with, I want to be the kind of human my horse can trust, and I want to be the kind of human who understands my horse in my role of both teacher and friend. When I manage to be a content and balanced person, both in mind and body, I can help my horse become a stronger, happier and more balanced horse.
How do you expect to treat a horse and how do you expect it to treat you?
Again, I only want to address the first part of the question as the second part will fall into place once I get the first part right. I want to treat my horse with respect, kindness, and empathy. I wish to empower my horse and thus give it every choice to show me at any point what it needs or wants. I expect to offer my horse open channels of communication at all times in which I feel confident as both a teacher and a friend.
Andrew’s answers
How do I want the horse to see me?
Ultimately, I would like a horse to see me exactly as it does. The reason why I say this is because, when a horse sees me precisely as it does, it behaves in a way that clearly shows what I am. And the person it shows me to be is either (a) a human in whom it sees an enlightened friend and trustworthy guide who empathises with it and who empowers it, helping it to become healthy and happy, (b) a creature who is
Vicki seeking a connection with Gulliver via the feed trough
such a slave to ego that he uses the horse as no more than an accessory to his own pursuits while muttering platitudes to the effect that it is for the love of the horse, or (c) an individual who is somewhere in between. Many of us find ourselves in Category (c) but what really counts is that a growing number of us are committed to becoming part of Category (a). By seeing me exactly as it does and behaving accordingly, a horse can show me clearly what progress I am making and what I have yet to work on more. Why I find this to be so important is because I believe that, if I finally make it to Category (a), I will discover that I have become a better human being, one who is well on the way to rediscovering his humanity, if he has not yet done so by then.
What do I want to get out of it?
Here I interpret ‘it’ as referring to the relationship between a horse and myself. What I want to get out of the relationship between a horse and myself is already suggested in my answer to the first question. I want to become the kind of human whom a horse seeks to be with, because it sees in him an enlightened friend and trustworthy guide who empathises with it and who empowers it, helping it to become healthy and happy. As such, what I want is what I want of myself and not of the horse. What the horse gives me will be what it chooses to do of its own accord in response to the human it sees before it.
How do you expect to treat a horse and how do you expect it to treat you?
I expect to treat a horse as an enlightened friend and trustworthy guide who empathises with it and who empowers it, helping it to become healthy and happy. However, I am only entitled to expect this, if I commit myself to being such a friend and guide in all my dealings with and concerning the horse, and not just my interaction with it. How do I expect a horse to treat me? I expect a horse to treat me exactly as it does in response to the human it sees before it. Put another way, I expect nothing from the horse and everything from myself.
Pignon and Hempfling
In her response to Andrew’s post on Kontiki and connecting, Lynne G. states that she finds ‘watching videos of Frédéric Pignon with horses more beneficial than viewing Hempfling videos’ (you can read the post and Lynne’s comment here). In my reply to Lynne’s comment I said that I ‘could only find ones featuring trick riding and/or double bridles with massively leveraged bits’. In response, Lynne has sent us links to the Pignon videos shown below.
We are presenting these Pignon videos along with two featuring Hempfling. You can find more videos featuring both of them on YouTube by entering their names in the search box on the YouTube website. We are interested in hearing whether anyone other than Lynne also finds it more beneficial to watch Pignon videos than those featuring Hempfling and whether there are any other videos which our readers watch for inspiration or guidance on how humans can establish a true or magical connection with horses. Enjoy!
Frédéric Pignon working with Lancelot
Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling working with Queijo
Frédéric Pignon working with his stallions
Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling working with Ferdinand
Postscript
Late this morning while Vicki was at the stable a pregnant mare was discovered with her left hind leg virtually severed just above the fetlock. Apparently, the mare, which had been placed with other mares belonging to the same owner on the latter’s instructions, had been kicked by one of the others. Most of the horses in the paddock with the exception of the pregnant mare were wearing metal shoes. Unfortunately, the wound was so severe that the mare had to be euthenased, another tragic victim of a situation that could so very easily have been avoided. May we all find the strength to act in accordance with our commitment to our horses’ health and happiness!
Dear Vicky
Maybe you remember me from the CS 2010 spring.
I feel very grateful to be a witness of your adventurous life trought Europe.
I’d like to comment the work of F. Pignon where I followed a training in 2009.:
It’s a total different approach and not comparable to the work of KFH at all. Where Klaus goes with the impuls of the moment, FP works with a clear (similar) basis-plan. FP seeks the attention with a trick/concept where I did not see, that the horse can decide whether it wants to trust this man or not. FP basis-work is with the stick, and his moto is: You have to be more interesting than a carot – which is quite easy when you beat the horse (he beats it with a certain “respectful”(!) attitude which I don’t want to judge. His basis-work does not look nice, but it works). FP has goals with his horses and I experienced his horses still quite joyful and his extra show (yes, it is a show!) in plain nature created indeed goose-skin.
The goose-skin effect with KFH was simply different. It is the parallelism, impuls and room for expression – and not the dressage. And this parallelism is the total connection to the moment, which is such a totally different approach to the life.
I think, exactly this is our possibility and the point of decision how WE want to approach life.
Dear Vicky – if you need a room with Andrew close to Basel, do not hesitate to contact me. It would be a pleasure to see you again.
Whish you all the best
Margrit
Dear Magrit
Thank you so much for your invitation. This is the second we have received for hospitality in Switzerland. Perhaps it is time that Vicki and I made our way to that lovely country again. It has been many years since we were last there.
Lynne has raised the possibility that the Pignon you are referring to is not Frédéric but his brother Jean-Francois, whom I personally have seen whacking a horse with a whip (see my post on the subject here). Are you sure that Frédéric is the one you are referring to?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Be well!
Andrew
Hi Vicki and Andrew,
And hi Margrit – nice to read your comments. I just watched all those clips. What I see is that Pignon creates a show – and this is what it says on his website – their aim is to make a ‘performance’. KFH can also create a show – but it is way different. His show is showing the process of him and a horse getting to that magical connection. It is not about horses ‘performing’.
Pignon’s horses look happy – I do not know anything about him so can only comment on the clips. To me it looks like he could use a type of clicker training. There is nothing wrong with that – and many studies have been done on animal behavior using this – and the response is way quicker and more positive than pressure and release. But, of course, Klaus uses neither!
Interestingly, when Marta Williams visited Australia one time, she did a reading for me and suggested I think about clicker training for Magnum. I did this and started – and it made an amazing difference. But I did not know enough about the techniques, and at the time did not know anything about Klaus’ work.
Of course it wasn’t until I had learnt from Klaus what I had to look at within myself, how I was standing, what thoughts are in my head etc. that I was able to get a halter on Magnum. So no amount of clicker training would have helped without that other knowledge. But maybe it can be used in conjunction with this other knowledge – after all, Klaus likes to give his horses carrots – but it is not in response to a certain action.
I have been using the carrot reward with Saadi lately – as when I brush him he turns around and puts his bottom to me as he loves having his tail scratched. So he has learnt when I don’t respond and just stand there, that it is not time for the tail! I don’t use a reward now – just stand there – and he then looks at me, turns back around and presents his head and neck. I do the tail last!
Now this is probably not how Klaus would do it, but it is working! I am not forcing – just standing quietly in my grounded position – waiting! Saying to myself – do not Haste – do not think about everything else you need to do! Oh it’s so hard!!! But, yes, I have rewarded him with food for turning back around.
I think I would sum up those clips by saying Pignon is saying to the horses – I want to show people what you can DO. Klaus is saying to the horse – I want to show people what you can BE.
Cheers,
Heather
Dear Heather
It is good to hear that all is going well with your horses. They are fortunate to have a very caring human looking after them.
As far as I know Frédéric Pignon does not use clicker training. In fact, I believe that he is opposed to it. You can find an uncritical profile of him in Issue 56 of Horses for Life.
I have since found a few other videos of Frédéric Pignon which do not feature trick riding or double bridles with massively levered bits and I must say that he does seem to establish a connection with horses which goes beyond the mechanical and the conditioned. The question that I am left with though, is what is in it for the horse?
This is a question that has never really become an issue for me in relation to Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (based on his books, videos and reports from numerous people who have attended his courses) until I read your Compact Schooling I (2011) notes on Karina’s horse, Cody (dubbed Jo-Jack by Hempfling). When Cody suddenly disappeared from the course after numerous lengthy sessions with Hempfling and the students were merely told that his problems had been solved, it was clear to me that the horse had not benefitted from the contact, otherwise the students would have been given an opportunity to see that. Normally, Hempfling seems pretty committed to healing horses and helping them to become strong and happy, so this appeared to be a bit out of character. I suppose not even Hempfling can be perfect all of the time. But what about the horse? It is supposed to be with him for the entire one-year school.
I look forward to hearing more about your journey with your horses, especially Magnum.
Take care!
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
I will look further at Pignon as it does seem interesting what he does. Re Cody (Jo Jack). At the time I left after CS3 he was still there. There was some discussion as to who would work with him and I don’t know if one person will or it will be several people.
Klaus did do more work with him and each ‘layer’ seemed to reveal something else – something more complex. But as far as I know he will be a project for the students, rather than Klaus. I do not hear now what the one year people are up to – and based on when I was over there, they are very busy each day – totally absorbed in the learning – and I imagine contacting others on the outside probably interrupts the flow of what they are learning. Also they have very little time for that.
Things change there as different things present themselves so it may be all entirely different by the end of the time there!
Cheers,
Heather
Dear Vicky and Andrew,
Although I have given my answers to Carolyn’s questions when I was at her beautiful place in Escondido, California, on Vicky’s post I shall copy them here again.
My answers to the 3 questions were:
1. dependable – Carolyn reacted to that one with `that is a point of interest` – which can be attached to `I want my horse to find me interesting enough to connect with`
2. NES – awareNESs – magical and magnetic connection – happy horses and happy people – earn a living and a bit more
3. with respect
I wish to point out that we got not more than 10 minutes to write our answers down. Key words actually. That is a perfect way of getting an instantaneous reaction that can be so very helpful as it usually comes from the core of human desire. Even if the desire has not yet fully surfaced to the conscious level.
From there on one can start questioning oneself if for example “how dependable am I with regard to myself”. From there on one can perhaps if the wish and the need is there do some work on that aspect. Which doesn’t mean that I fully agree with Vicky’s remark that we should not really have to ‘use’ the horse for our ‘feedback’ or ‘propr’. Why should it not be an and-and-situation instead of an or-or-situation. Human’s responsibility comes in the picture there. To become the leader of one’s own life in order to become the horse’s leader. To become used to being led by other humans so there is no resistance to being led by the horse at times. But sometimes it takes a lifetime before realising/to figure out what being one’s own leader and being led at some other times does mean or feel or encompass. So it is almost inevitable for us to grow with the horse at our side, don’t you think. And at the same time also a most wonderful realisation.
However, being a responsible human one should I feel be prepared to take action and find a way to do something with spiritual practice or practical spirituality.
The NES (NES Provision NutriEnergeticSystem) in my reply to the 2nd question refers to my ability to make a scan (giving information available on the quantumelectrodynamic level) of the human or animal body field and so get an idea of what the horse for example is still dealing with on an emotional level even if we as humans are so busy supporting the horse to become healthy on all levels. It is amazing to watch the emotional screens of the NES and see how much the horse (or dog as well) is prepared to support its human in dealing with whatever ‘burdens/issues’. I would love to get more people to know about this possibility and so help their horses on another level in combination with the (KFH/CR) journey some of us are travelling now. And at the same time ‘freeing the horse’ so it will not have any reason at all anymore NOT to seek us.
OK I shall leave it here.
I intend to take a look at the clips from an energetic point of view and will give you my views on that one in another reply.
Warmly,
Geerteke
Dear Geerteke
Thanks for sharing your experiences with Carolyn Resnick. It sounds as though the course was really helpful.
With regard to humans using horses as a prop or to obtain feedback, you ask why it should not be an ‘and-and situation’ instead of an ‘either-or’ one. Doesn’t this in turn beg the question as to whether we would then not be doing precisely what we have turned our back on in order to embark on our current journey, namely, humans’ use of horses for their own agenda rather than as part of a symbiotic relationship which is simultaneously – as opposed to sequentially – ‘and-and’? Put another way, what is in it for the horse if we use it as a prop or for feedback?
Be well!
Andrew
What I meant with ‘and-and’ Andrew has to do with the question you very often put to us readers “what is in it for the horse”.
How about a possibility that there is a lot in it for the horse only you and I do not know what. Something that might be of a magnitude that is totally incomprehensible for the human mind. Still. Yet.
How about the possibility ‘horse’ having chosen ‘human’ to learn about being an individual.
How about ‘horse’ having chosen ‘human’ to learn about being a predator. Using us. Isn’t it bizar that there so far cetainly in the very beginning there have been males getting involved in this ‘natural horsemanship’ business turning it into a worldwide ‘thing’. Males have always been the hunters.
How about ‘horse’ having chosen ‘human’ for that purpose to be its ‘props’.
How about ‘horse’ wanting ‘human’ to believe that ‘human’ has enslaved ‘horse’. So as long as we continue believing that there is a reason for us to try and turn the enslavement around. And by turning the enslavement around we are returning to ourselves the most precious gift of all. Freedom.
How about ‘human’ finding out when finally in the enlightened state you are talking about, that what we have been considering the or a truth is far from the TRUTH. Perhaps because we didn’t know we were enlightened all along and the beautiful varnished layer, we like to make the outside world believe we are, covering all that had/has not yet started cracking.
How about ‘we are not good enough’ having a different meaning. Perhaps meaning that we are so good that we can move to a next or another level of awareness. Another dimension. An expression like ‘we are not good enough’ can trigger us to dig even deeper in our layers and so discover what otherwise would have remained unnoticed. Remained in the dark.
How about ‘horse’ BEING unconditional love. Saying NO when ‘human’ likes to have something. A magnetic connection for example. ‘Horse’ knowing that a magnetic connection might release endorfines. Still ‘horse’ can/may be prepared/willing to feel/encounter/endure stress if it is necessary for man to take more time to understand.
Phew!
Geerteke
Dear Vicky and Andrew,
I agree with Heather and Margrit that KFH and FP are wo different people with different approaches. So difficult, if not impossible, to compare. What works for one may not work for the other and at the same time in the very small details there may be overlappings.
They are both performing.
FP is performing a show.
KFH is performing a training. In my view.
I use KFH’s approach in combination with Carolyn Resnick’s Waterhole Rituals to get a double ‘result’. The magnetic connection and at the same time supporting the horse in acquiring suppleness in its body in a situation where there is so much freedom of movement for the horse that it can choose to go another direction if the horse has trouble with its body in either the left or the right lateral bend. As I have trained and competed at Prix St Georges/Intermediare I level I find it extremely interesting and fascinating to put everything together.
FP ‘talks’ of tricks, standing on a wooden something, doing so-called liberty dancing as Carolyn calls it. I can speak of my own experience that liberty dancing feels really good. I had that opportunity during Carolyn’s clinic last December. I must confess that me feeling good was because the horse was responding beautifully and the horse and I were doing some of the turns FP is showing. However, I never took the time to check the mare’s emotional state. Actually there was not really an opportunity as the mare made it possible for all of us, participants, to experience the ‘liberty dancing’. She was very obliging. She did get some rest in between though.
I was watching some old videos the other day. I think they were from 1986. Videos showing me and my first dressage horse training at Henk van Bergen’s place in Nijmegen. At that time one of the best and wellknown dressage trainers in Europe and even the States. I was lucky and I felt tremendously honoured that I was allowed to become his student. However, with the knowledge I have now I would never ever keep any horse in a position of continuous repetition the way it was done then. Because I, the rider, had to learn new things. And he, the horse, probably having the feeling that he was still not doing well enough because of all the repetitions. But it worked. It gave the results we were looking for. The results we WANTED.
And there I do fully agree with you, Vicky, that the horse should not be ‘used’ as a ‘prop’. The same results can be achieved by giving both rider and horse the time to reflect. To drop the reins. To get back to a relaxed walk. To let the horse lower its head and lick and chew if there is sufficient space and the noseband is nog too tight! To let feelings sink in. To make sure that the horse and rider stay as much as possible in their comfort zone. Or certainly that the horse stays in its comfort zone. I have the experience that with the right attitude the horse can still be in its comfort zone whilst the rider is triggered/invited to stretch its boundaries and so enlarge its comfort zone. To the benefit of the horse.
KFH ‘talks’ of shoulder-in. Of collection. Of making the forehand light.
In both cases there is trust, respect and sometimes love.
In both cases it is the human that gets the credits. Certainly from most of the audience. In whichever way or form.
If a human has the opinion that he is worth being paid €90.000 for a 1-year schooling then that human is very very confident. And that is okay. Perhaps we who think that an awful lot of money are less self-confident. I don’t know. If KFH has put and still puts lots and lots of energy in his undertaking or mission, then that energy will have to be replenished. Money is energy materialized.
However, horses are horses. With their own personalities.
So I will give my impression of the horses’ energies that can be seen in the videos. I have taken away the music as it easier for me to concentrate that way.
I would love to hear from you what your feelings are in this respect.
Video 1 FP and Lancelot
The horse rolls twice. Feels like stress is the reason. FP’s energy feels okay. Inviting the horse.
The horse’s energy feels out of balance. Emotionally. Doesn’t like what it is doing. I don’t have the feeling it is the environment or the audience. Perhaps what is being wanted/expected. Checks things out by galloping past the audience. Flight action? Gets the space to do that.
Although the horse comes back to FP and chews its energy feels out of balance still.
But the horse still experiences a feeling of safety next to FP.
The chewing can be an expression that it understands. Even if it doesn’t like what it is understanding.
At 1.11 the horse is asked to make a turn. The horse obliges, but doesn’t seem to like it. It is a proud horse. Its pride is being challenged.
“Trained Bear??”(sorry, forgive me if this sounds offensive). But then if the ‘trained bear’ is happy and healthy (physically,mentally, emotionally and spiritually) there is nothing wrong with being a ‘trained bear’. What do you think?!
At the PPP KFH expressed his feeling on a horse being in a stable for 23,5 hours. “Don’t worry, as long as the horse is calm”. I imagine he doesn’t mean on a daily basis?!
What I am trying to get across is that if something is not obstructing the horse’s health on all levels some things can be allowed, apparently.
Somehow at 1.51 FP’s energy feels respectful and loving, but wanting and for some reason not understanding. I don’t know what FP doesn’t understand. It has to do with the horse.
At 2.59 the elevated/collected (?) trot is with a low back. Low back meaning stress/fear/adrenaline. Adding to the horse’s energy being out of balance.
Even when the horse sometimes licks and chews. The horse seems to tell FP again it understands, but it doesnt always mean the horse is feeling happy even though one is very often told that is the case when a horse licks and chews. At least that is what I have been given to understand.
So then it looks/feels that at 3.00 the horse decides to disconnect.
Whether that was meant to be I don’t know. I can hear Carolyn telling us when during our liberty dancing experience something went wrong like losing the connection: “don’t worry the audience won’t know that was not meant to happen”. A valuable observation for me personally.
The horse then seems to tell FP “I am bigger than you”. FP’s energy has become understanding and he goes into companion trotting. The horse’s energy changes to a balanced state. The horse apparently likes this.
FP then turns away from the horse. At that moment FP disconnects. The horse takes off. It feels left behind/abandoned. It comes back to FP. Showing half rearing movements. Telling FP “I can handle you!”.
FP’s energy is loving, understanding, respectful, but still wanting.
The horse’s energy feels having gone out of balance again.
During the last few seconds the horse’s energy feels okay again. Does it know the show is coming to an end??
Video 2 KFH
From a 100% connection there has been in my feeling a 90% connection during the playtime of the video.
Both the horse’s and KFH’s energy give a good feel.
Video 3 FP
The energy of FP and the first Friesian (?) horse feels good. The horse seems to really love the game. Beautifully connected.
The second Friesian horse comes in and the game continues. It goes, feels and looks well. The interesting thing here is that when FP runs away at 3.34 all 3 seem to stay connected.
When horse nr 3 joins the connection feels there amongst the 4 energies.
I do seem to observe that horse nr 3 is at times a bit uneven in the walk on a left circle.
The energy of horse nr 3 in the middle sometimes doesn’t feel stable. Perhaps because he is in the middle?! Three is a crowd??
Video 4 KFH and Ferdinand
From the start a good energy.
The rearing has a different energy as well. More a come-and-play-with-me-energy.
At 2.31 both energies seem to change. KFH is putting himself in a drawing position. As if he wants the horse to come to him.
But then it can also be that KFH perhaps unwillingly or maybe even unknowingly has disconnected and the horse doesn’t like that feeling of being disconnected.When Ferdinand then approaches him and rears that movement has a completely different feel. More the I-can-handle-you-energy. Or a what-do-you-want-energy.
The rest of the video the energy of both KFH and Ferdinand feels good.
Well I don’t know if this appeals to any of you.
I love to check on energies as it tells us much more than the ‘material eye’ can see. Most of the times.
A quote by Chris Irwin says: “frame of body is frame of mind”. So if human is VEEEEEEEERY good at reading the horse’s body one can read the horse’s mind. However, also at the quantumelectrodynamic level????????
Warm wishes to all of you on your respective journeys.
Geerteke
Dear Geerteke
Rather than seeking to compare F. Pignon and Hempfling, in our post we asked whether anyone in addition to Lynne thinks that it is more beneficial to watch videos featuring the former than the latter, and whether anyone could suggest videos featuring other trainers that would be beneficial to watch. As you point out, a comparison would be difficult if not impossible. To this I would add ‘meaningless’.
I must confess that I have difficulties understanding how you can combine Hempfling’s approach with Carolyn Resnick’s waterhole rituals. The latter represent a method, which Resnick advocates for all horses. Essential to Hempfling’s approach is his insistence that every horse needs to be approached as an individual and that, as such, no method is consistent with this and hence his approach. Perhaps I am missing something?
Your analysis of the videos is very helpful. Pinpointing the role of energy in the relationship between horse and human goes to the heart of the matter, I think, because, as I see it, the parallel alignment of their energy denotes the occurrence of a true connection between them. Hempfling refers to this as the ‘first parallel’, which is readily visible in the act of horse and human moving in sync with each other.
Thank you.
Take care!
Andrew
Dear Andrew,
Yes – perhaps you are missing something. But perhaps you may not. I think I mentioned it in a comment on one of your previous blogs.
I combine KFH and CR in the following way. In my feeling they are complementary. I have come to that conclusion in 2010. In August of that year I attended an Introduction to the WHR. The following month I was a participant in the 8-day Pure Practical Performance. What KFH showed us with the available horses was for me at least not some kind of magic. I noticed him ‘sharing territory’ (ritual 1), ‘saying hello’ (ritual 2), ‘taking territory’(ritual 3), ‘leading from behind’(ritual 4), ‘eye contact’(ritual 5), companion walking (ritual 6), ‘liberty dancing’ (ritual 7).
When the rituals are introduced to human it is like 1, 2, 3 etc.
When the rituals are know, body awareness is sufficient, then one can start where one thinks appropriate. Depending upon the situation and the horse. So there is the same QUOTE…..insistence that every horse needs to be approached as an individual and that, as such, no method is consistent with this and hence his approach……..UNQUOTE
Both methods/rituals are tools. Tools can be used separately. Tools can be used together, one supporting the other. There is the freedom of choice.
Warmly,
Geerteke
How curious! What I had hoped to convey by referring to Frédéric Pignon has been presented here in a subtly truncated, distorted way that unfortunately overshadows the essential meaning and reason for my comments and instead infuses them with a negative essence that has lead to an “either/or” comparison. A pity, as I would have much preferred there to have been some contemplation given to the flowing exchange of leadership between horse and human that some trainers embrace.
Nothing I have seen or read about Frédéric Pignon meshes with the experience Margrit relays (which I would find repulsive if that is what I was being taught how to relate to horses)–in fact quite the opposite seems the case. I have, however, read and seen such descriptions about the way Frédéric’s brother, Jean-Francois Pignon trains and teaches…is there perhaps a mistake in identity?
I can sense the depth of feeling Carolyn Resnick and Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling have for the horses and recognize that their way of connecting with horses is in its own way exquisite–both have been quite influential in how I interact with the horses in my life. Somehow, though, for myself I found certain aspects to their type of leadership limiting and too dominating (the “taking territory” for example, especially when it is outside of a genuine context and turned into a training technique to establish a connection) and I found a more fitting inspiration in the work of Imke Spilker and Frédéric Pignon.
Each of us see/feel/experience differently and at the time it seemed appropriate for me to introduce some different thoughts regarding leadership and connection. That they do not find resonance here and have prompted a different type of contemplation than what I intended is, of course, as it ought to be and will lead to good things just the same.
Cheers!
Dear Lynne
First off, I wish to apologise for the fact that the link to your original comment was not working (hence your reference to ‘a subtly truncated, distorted way’, I take it). It was an oversight and has been remedied.
Nevertheless, I must confess that I cannot see how your comments have been infused with a ‘negative essence that has led to an “either/or” comparison’. Your words are there for all to read and we have not suggested that F. Pignon and Hempfling be compared. Rather than seeking to compare F. Pignon and Hempfling, in our post we asked whether anyone in addition to you thinks that it is more beneficial to watch videos featuring the former than the latter, and whether anyone could suggest videos featuring other trainers that would be beneficial to watch. No more and no less.
To suggest that the ‘different thoughts regarding leadership and connection’ which you have introduced ‘do not find resonance here and have prompted a different type of contemplation’ from what you intended may be true to the extent that this contemplation does differ from what you intended but it is not in relation to their resonance. Judging from the discussion in this forum and our own here at home, they have indeed found resonance here, although this may not extend to admiration for the use of horses for the pleasure of humans in elaborate shows involving tricks, harsh equipment and stressful travel.
Still, I would imagine that most if not all of us will look for the good in it all, take that and leave the rest. I will be ordering my copy of Gallop to Freedom as soon as we return home next week. I am intrigued and I thank you for that.
Incidentally, you may have noticed that Magrit has confirmed that she had mixed up the Pignons. It was Jean-Francois she was referring to and not Frédéric.
Be well!
Andrew
Geerteke’s energetic reviews of the videos are rich with insight. One needs to keep in mind with KFH’s videos, they are beautifully edited whereas the videos with FP are unscripted and unedited live performances (which change each time depending on what the horses are inclined to bring to the performances by their own initiative.)
Dear Lynne
To suggest that F. Pignon’s videos are ‘unscripted and edited live performances’ is a bit disingenous. As far as I know, most if not all of the available videos featuring F. Pignon are extracts from beautifully edited professional productions available on DVD or broadcast on television for the purposes of producing a profit. Where professional shows are involved (which are also staged to produce a profit), it would be difficult to imagine that no scripting occurred to some or other extent.
By the same token you are absolutely right to point out that we need to be aware that Hempfling’s videos are edited, slickly so, I would add. Indeed, I would go further and suggest that we only get to see what he deems to be in his business interests to allow us to see.
Be well!
Andrew
Dear Lyne, thank you very much for your comment on my energetic reviews. I agree with you 100% that KFH’s videos are edited as far as I know. They certainly give that impression. And I thought along the way of mentioning this. I forgot. I am garetful you did.
Of course there remains the fact that I am only and only looking at the energy. Whether it is edited or not. It is for me, when I am looking at energy, a NOW moment. Sometimes the NOW moment is a reflection of something that has been going on for some time. But for the time being, in these energetic reviews, I try not to pretend to know what is wrong or right. I am just trying to be a neutral observer. If that is ever possible:-))
And I do like to watch FP’s horses getting the space and time to bring their own initiative to their performance and FP managing to stay in the energy he is in. That is very inspiring.
What I like about KFH losing his ‘supporting energy’, even if it is for a very short while, is that it means that he is as human as we are although he sometimes can give (wo)man the feeling that ‘we are not worth it’ in the horse’s perception if the horse isn’t prepared to follow man’s leadership’ for whatever reason. I have heard him say this.
However, I never thought of ‘taking a look at his energy when watching his video clips”. I am glad I did now. Not because I want to prove him wrong. Far from that. Also there it is an observation. I feel really priviliged that I have the ‘gift’ to be abe to do that.
At the same time I know and accept and understand that like in anthropology the different researchers on the same excavation site may come up with a different/their own ‘truth’. And then in the end putting all the ‘truths’ together they might get/form an idea how man probably has lived ages and ages ago.
I am expressing my thoughts/feelings here.
And just to let you know :-)) I do check my own energy regularly as I find it very interesting and I try not to burden my horse too much with any emotional issues I am undoubtedly carrying around as well. Trying to be a ‘clean mirror’ for myself and those around me including horses (and dogs) is a never ending journey.
Actually, Lynne, what suddenly dawns on me is that I have not ‘looked’ at Carolyn’s energy yet. Perhaps it is time for me to do that. Again not to prove anything for myself or anybody else. Just out of curiosity. I have a very exploring kind of mind.
Wishing you all well,
Geerteke
Dear all
Indeed I messed the two brothers up – althought the result of BOTH of them is a very professional, beautyful and breath-taking show and is connected with a lot of work. My respect to the effort and the work.
Anthing else can be seen with different eyes and from different angles and as already mentioned in this conversation by Heather: The difference is between DO and BE – I do fully agree.
Luckily we are free to decide anytime if we either DO or ARE.
I think a perfect last sentence to go to sleep now on the other side of Australia.
Take care
Margrit
Thank you Andrew, Vicki, Geerteke and Lynne,
I find that you all bring such valuable input to the discussion. Please keep it up.We are all learning from it.
Anne-Marie
Andrew, maybe Pignon runs some courses – perhaps you and Vicki could go and check him out. I read that review you mentioned and he does sound interesting!
Cheers,
Heather
Dear Andrew,
It is a habit of mine that I am often overly sensitive to words and phrasing, so I am relieved that you did not intend to suggest an “either/or” situation with regard to the videos of Pignon when you put this question out to readers: “Should we look to Pignon for guidance rather than Hempfling or is this a non-issue?” [bold emphasis is mine]
I will try to explain why I felt that a bit of misunderstanding of my original comment emerged in the way your phrased things. To sum up my comment you wrote the following, (which again I have added emphasis on a key word which subtly distorts my comment):
“Lynne G. has sent us links to two videos featuring a well-known French horse trainer and performer called Frédéric Pignon, saying that she finds it more beneficial to watch videos of his interaction with horses than any which feature Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling.”
By stating that I said I find Pignon’s videos more beneficial than “any” which feature KFH is not an accurate summation of what I had written is it?
“To that end, I find watching videos of Frédéric Pignon with horses more beneficial than viewing Hempfling videos.”
This one aspect which you quoted me on was a concluding remark to some much more in depth concepts I had been hoping to draw attention to. There was a definite element I had brought up which “to that end” refers to. Would you like to relay what it was? It was for that element that I found more benefit from viewing Pignon’s videos…which is different than saying I found the Pignon videos more beneficial to view than “any” of Hempfling’s, do you see what I mean?
They are subtle nuances which I felt altered my meaning.
I see now as more comments from you and your readers come in that what I was appreciating about Frédéric Pignon is being revealed through further review of his work. Nice! When you read anything about his horse Templado, it may (as it has done for me) answered well the question “What’s in it for the horse.”
Cheers!
“To suggest that F. Pignon’s videos are ‘unscripted and edited live performances’ is a bit disingenous.”
You meant to type “unscripted and unedited” I’m sure, as that is what my comment said. Neither of the two videos I sent the links to and which you helpfully embedded into your blog are excerpts from the Cavalia productions, rather they are performances put on during the 2010 Equita Lyon international horse exhibition. Each performance is live and the video footage is complete from the beginning of Pignon and the horses’ performance to the end–not edited extracts, (at least that’s how I recall them when last viewed.)
From everything that I have read, with the liberty performances, there is a general idea (a loose routine) of what Pignon hopes will unfold, but it all depends on the horses, who tend to dictate how the flow of their demonstration will proceed. I read that because of this Pignon always performs with a live orchestra who can improvise accordingly for those times when the horses present something unexpected.
My feeling is that in these liberty exhibitions Pignon is assisting the horses who themselves like to show what they can do. You could imagine Pignon saying to the horses, “My magnificent friends, let’s go out and show the world who you are and what you can do!” and the horses say, “Yes! Let’s do it together!” Somehow it feels to me, that in a similar way, KFH does the same thing, albeit not in a different exhibition setting.
My apologies for not proofing myself better…
“Somehow it feels to me, that in a similar way, KFH does the same thing, albeit not in a different exhibition setting.” should of course been “…albeit in a different exhibition setting.”
We owe a debt to both KFH and FP for showing us how horses can “be” as well as what they can “do”, as their work inspires others to see horses as something other than a sports appliance…they help the horses cultivate self-actualization and show us what is possible in our own horse/human relationships. That is great stuff!
Cheers!
Hello Andrew, Vicki and all ~
I am so enjoying reading your blog and wonderful comments by your thoughtful guests! I wish I had time to comment on each one, because the points everyone makes are so intriguing. Perhaps I will have more time soon and can jump into the conversation. Meanwhile, I am reading every word and loving the blog! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences in such an open way.
Love to all,
Susan
Hello Andrew and Vicki,
On my journey with horses I ask myself a lot the question “what is in it for the horse”. I think the answer is instantly “in the favour of the human” by the mere fact the horse – whether we like it or not – is captive to us……it is fenced in and relies on us for its needs – physical and emotional.
The answer for me depends on what I am doing with them.
When I am in the paddock just saying hello and finding those places they love being rubbed….there is plenty in it for the horse.
When I have taken them out on a ride, there is less in it for the horse and more in it for me, and I constantly work on evening up the balance. Because I still choose to do these things “for me” I hope that I am a considerate and thoughtful rider (I work on being in harmony with riding, I take regular breaks off heir backs, we stop to eat grass, I ride bitless and barefoot). I also hope that what is in it for the horse is a change of scenery from their daily life in the paddock and that they find this interesting.
You (and I) have started questioning whether the idea of working in a confiend area (arena, picardo, roundyard) is really just another form of entrapment. Also whether the long established rule of Human is leader and horse is follower is correct.
With these questions arising in you, you might be interested in a man called Chuck Mintzlaff who has a program called “Friendship Training”. It is not about the human establishing a leader/alpha position with the horse, it is about forming a “peer attachment” at total liberty and without any tools at all. It works on creating the life long “friendship” you often see between 2 horses within a larger herd. His website is http://www.friendshiptraining.org/ also search YouTube for some of his clips.
I haven’t embarked on it myself, but I am a member of an online forum called Horse Conscious (the social networking section), and a number of the people there are undertaking it (you undertake the program at home with your horse and Chuck coaches you through daily emails and phone calls). The positive change in the dynamic of the relationship between the person and the horse sounds amazing and quite inspiring – and these are just everyday people and everyday horses. (if you want to hear a few stories I can copy them across)
Thanks for your blog and your willingness to share your journey with all of us.
Cheers
Kelly
http://www.waterfallcreek.com.au
Dear Kelly
It is a great source of encouragement and inspiration to know that I am embarked on a journey with horses which is being undertaken by such sensitive humans as you, Glenn and a growing number of other people.
Yes, we know of Chuck Mintzlaff. Vicki briefly had contact with him a number of years ago. And yes, I am also familiar with Horse Conscious. I used to be a member several years ago but left it for a number of reasons, not least of which is that I believe that it should be possible to contribute to discussions in such a forum free of charge.
Language has its limitations and we tend to reach them very quickly in discussions involving horses. Take the concept of a human serving as a leader. The latter term seems to suggest that we have to contend with a one-way relationship, in which the human leads and the horse follows. To my mind, a leader is someone who is not only trustworthy but who is also enlightened enough to be empathetic towards the creature he leads and to empower it to become a leader in that creature’s own right (irrespective of whether the creature is a fellow human or a horse).
Such leadership can and does occur, as is attested to by stories of horses not only becoming healthier and happier under the guidance and care of their humans, but also gaining self-confidence with both humans and other horses. We lead the horse and we allow the horse to lead us. As Hempfling puts it:
I put myself in a world at one with the horses, as the shepherd is at one with the sheep. In my case there is a comparable interplay: leading and being led blend into a shared experience. I lead the horse, the horse leads me, and we are both led in that place and time. Only in that way can what seems to be impossible occur. We are simply on a shared path. We each reveal ourselves (What Horses Reveal, p. 42).
It seems to me that we humans do not need to deny the role of leader that we inevitably assume with our horses. More importantly, we need to acknowledge it. After all, it is the human who decides how the horse is kept and cared for, what it will eat, how it will be accommodated, whether it will be shoed or not, etc., etc., etc…, not to mention where and when horse and human will interact with each other. All are essential aspects of the leadership which the horse has a right to expect of us as the flip side of the trust it places in us. To deny such leadership is to deny our responsibility for our horse.
Having said this, I believe that it is possible to be both a leader and a friend to a horse at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I would go so far as to say that friendship with a horse for which a human is responsible is not possible in the absence of that human accepting and living up to that responsibility, in other words, of that human being an enlightened, trustworthy leader who empathises with and empowers his horse.
Thank you for sharing your ideas and best wishes to Glenn.
Be well!
Andrew